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Racing Fuel Systems Forum for carb guys. 2022-03-30T05:39:48+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/feed.php?f=5&t=278 2022-03-30T05:39:48+01:00 2022-03-30T05:39:48+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1668#p1668 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> you contact him & tell him how right he is. And let us know how you get on. I have nothing further to prove, all done in this thread, easily verifiable; anybody who wants copies of info I provided can email me & I will be glad to supply the info.

Statistics: Posted by GTO Geoff — Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:39 am


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2022-03-29T23:42:01+01:00 2022-03-29T23:42:01+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1663#p1663 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by Right hand drive — Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:42 pm


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2022-03-29T23:11:39+01:00 2022-03-29T23:11:39+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1662#p1662 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> [1] Just to clarify some matters. The Edel dyno test 6619 v AFB started at 2500 rpm. Your vac sec spring chart claims that the secs open at 2750 rpm. I have no idea at what rpm the sec AV tips in on the AFB, but may well be later because the AFB has small primaries, large secs [ 1 11/16" ], compared to 1 9/16" for all 4 Holley barrels. But it doesn't really matter because the AFB was ahead from the start, 2500 & up, & never bettered by the H. At 2500 rpm, the AFB was making about 284 f/lbs, the 6619 276 f/lbs. Why was E testing two carb brands? This is the best theory I can come up with: this was a brand new carb for Carter & they were confident it could beat H in all aspects. Testing at Uncle Joe's dyno probably wouldn't sway many people. But testing at one of the country's most prestigious aftermarket companies would make the test results very believable.
[2] The nonsense by Mark Chapman that IR systems are really a waste of time. Tell that to a Ferrari owner, who do much with less. I think MC forgot that some types of racing & driving, the car needs to start from idle or off idle, & may need to drop down to low rpms. Our Supercar cars here are 302 ci making about 650 hp @ 7200 rpm. They need to start from zero & get down to 30 mph through the corners at some tracks. They use IR induction.
[3] I have the SAE white paper that Chrys submitted to the SAE on the development of the 426 Hemi, in 1963. [ first raced in 1964 ]. During testing, on the race engine, single 4 bbl, dual 4bbl & FI [ IR system ] were tested. Remember this was 60 yrs ago, so the #s seem low compared to today. Single 4bbl made about 550, leveling off at 6800; dual 4 bbl made 600, leveling off at 6400; FI made 630 @ 6400 & was climbing steeply. Hilborn FI was used on the Summer brothers land speed record car. Hmmmm....
[4] Tests done by Edel on their cross ram 4bbl inline intake, results published in HRM, Feb 1966. Dual Hs v dual AFBs. Pull started at 3000, went to 6500. AFB were down 10 hp @ 3000, but caught up by 3500 & were mostly ahead to 6500. Not much in it, but definitely nonsense to say H's 'always make more HP'.
[5] The claim that slabbing t/shafts does nothing. The carb makers didn't get the message because all performance carbs, including H, Webers, Delorttos etc use them. That is additional cost. Why would the companies do that if there was no gain??
[6] Chapman's nonsense that H carbs always make more power than an AV carb. Larew has a dedicated chapter on AV carbs in his book. He states concerning the pressure drop across the AV: 'One of the objectives in the design of this carb was the capability of large airflows with small pressure drops in the carb'.
And:
'The drop over the valve varies from substantially zero to approx this value [ 14"of water ] in accordance with the degree to which the sec throttle is opened & in accordance with the speed of the engine, or in accordance with the value of the airflow through the barrel in pounds per second.'

Statistics: Posted by GTO Geoff — Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:11 pm


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2022-03-29T19:51:47+01:00 2022-03-29T19:51:47+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1661#p1661 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by Right hand drive — Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:51 pm


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2022-03-29T16:42:28+01:00 2022-03-29T16:42:28+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1660#p1660 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by gntkllr — Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:42 pm


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2022-03-29T16:34:35+01:00 2022-03-29T16:34:35+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1659#p1659 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by bigblockmark — Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:34 pm


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2022-03-29T11:55:41+01:00 2022-03-29T11:55:41+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1658#p1658 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by GTO Geoff — Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:55 am


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2022-03-29T10:28:17+01:00 2022-03-29T10:28:17+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1657#p1657 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by Right hand drive — Tue Mar 29, 2022 10:28 am


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2022-03-29T08:06:14+01:00 2022-03-29T08:06:14+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1656#p1656 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by Right hand drive — Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:06 am


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2022-03-29T07:57:44+01:00 2022-03-29T07:57:44+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1655#p1655 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> was an emissions carb also, #9625, an AFB not an AVS. It came with an elec choke & was emissions certified. Edel could have used the Carter Competition Series 625 AFB, #4759, but they didn't......
.
It as apples to apples as you can get.
Over to you...

Statistics: Posted by GTO Geoff — Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:57 am


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2022-03-29T07:10:09+01:00 2022-03-29T07:10:09+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1654#p1654 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by Right hand drive — Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:10 am


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2022-03-29T06:42:13+01:00 2022-03-29T06:42:13+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1653#p1653 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Correct on the Holley book quote. Further down the page it states in italics that the other end of the curve is the limiting factor. Essentially saying any dope can make a huge carb, but will it be able to meter at low air flows??

Such a stupid statement that the H carb is a 'tube' carb.....as if other brands are not. Can you think of an automotive carb that is not? I cannot. Even a Predator is a tube carb, rect, not round tube. D. Vizard says this about the P carb in his carb book.; ' The atomization that the P delivers keeps the low end output inline with a fixed jet carb, & the throttle response it gives is excellent.'

Like I said, Campbell should read page 8. The flow density through the carb is dependent on restrictions within the carb. When you watch dyno tests of AV carbs that have a camera above the carb, the AV opens well before peak rpm where the max flow [ with least restriction will be needed ] will be needed. Nicks Garage, Canada, has some video. The Holley sec carb has a venturi & a booster to reduce flow; AV carb has a vertical blade, thin shaft & dump tubes. So just bullshit to say that an AV carb can never make as much power as a H. I looked for some examples to disprove this nonsense, couldn't find any back to back tests [ other than the one I posted earlier ], but I found these examples which I think are pretty convincing:
[1] PHR magazine pulled the engines from the popular muscle cars of the time to dyno the small block engines & see if they made the adv HP. Chev, Chrys, Buick, Olds, Pontiac were tested. Only one produced the adv HP, the Chr 340. It actually made 20 hp more, 295 hp v 275 adv!!! Not only that: 'And, to top it, the 340 would rev up to 6500 rpm...' The 351 Ford got the lowest hp, 210, adv 290. It had a Holley or it's Autolite cousin. The 340 had a 625 Carter AVS. Published in PHR, Feb 1969.
[2] Car & Driver tested the 'Econo Racers' in Jan 69. Basic, no frills models, showroom condition.. Chev, Ford. Chr & Pontiac. Cars were scrupulously checked for originality & Pontiac was disqualified for cheating. MPH is the best predictor of HP over the 1/4 mile. 383 Dodge v 428 Ford. Both 3.5 diffs, Ford was 125 lb heavier. But it had 45 extra cubes, more tq, & higher CR 10.6 v 10.0. Both rated at 335 HP. Dodge ran 100.61 & 100.89 for the Ford. Ford had a Holley, 625 AVS on the Dodge.
[3] And then there was Roger Huntington's tests. 61 Dodge 413, 385 adv hp, 92 mph. 427 Ford, 427 adv hp, ran 87 mph. Both had 4.1 diffs. Dodge had a 3 speed manual, Ford a 4 speed. Estimated HP by RH was 270 for each. Dodge had dual AFBs, Ford had dual Holleys.

Statistics: Posted by GTO Geoff — Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:42 am


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2022-03-29T05:39:06+01:00 2022-03-29T05:39:06+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1652#p1652 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Edel made manifolds for engines that originally used Carter Carbs. Why wouldn't they use CC for testing? If they were 'looking' at Carter in 1974, then they changed their mind because my 1979 E catolog contains nine Holley carbs along with a heap of H parts. Part # 4388 is a 0.093" bush for use re-calibration for idle feeds, MAB, Int AB etc. They are not listed in my 1984 catalog, so dropped over that 10 yr period. If you want a copy, pm me your email address.

Statistics: Posted by GTO Geoff — Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:39 am


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2022-03-28T11:12:23+01:00 2022-03-28T11:12:23+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1648#p1648 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]> Statistics: Posted by Right hand drive — Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:12 am


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2022-03-28T10:09:00+01:00 2022-03-28T10:09:00+01:00 https://racingfuelsystems.com/viewtopic.php?t=278&p=1647#p1647 <![CDATA[Re: Some here might find this Holley history interesting.]]>
As to the density, it’s the mass of air/fuel an engine sees and needs more of to increase power. Because an engine has volume and air/fuel mass is being induced then you have a density of air/fuel (density = mass/volume). I’ll let a Mike Urich & Bill Fisher quote from Holley Carburetors & Manifolds help explain:

”Many people believe the throttle controls the volumeof fuel/air mixture being pumped into an engine. This is not the case. Piston displacement never changes, so the volume of air pulled into the engineis constant for any given speed. The throttle controls the density or mass flow of the air pumped into the engine by the action of the pistons: Least density of charge is available at idle, highest density at wide-open throttle. A dense charge has more air mass, hence higher compression and burning pressures can be developed for higher power out-put. Thus, the throttle controls engine speed and power output by varying the charge density supplied to the engine.”

Mr Campbell was saying that ultimately the air-valve style carburetors cannot supply as much air/fuel mass as the plain tube carburetor due to the air valve design/function. That’s how I heard it anyway. I wouldn’t think he was talking of 11 sec quarter mile level or of those test you refer to Geoff, but of a higher hp level.

I took all of what he was talking about from a high performance perspective. So when it comes to drilling of the main wells etc I wouldn’t contemplate it if my tuning goals were efficiency and emissions as it would be pointless. But looking for a performance advantage it may be worth the trial to get some old blocks and do a before and after test. What he was referring to is that due to a liquids propensity to adhere to a solid (fuel to well wall) it is too hard to get the smaller volume of fuel of the standard diameter main well moving quickly so enlarging the well allows more fuel away from the wall to get moving quicker. Remember he said a main jet change would be in order to balance pressure differentials. Larew speaks of this wall adherence in Carburetors & Carburetion:

”The surface tension of gasoline and the adhesion of gasoline to the surface of a nozzle cause the gasoline to tend to stay in the nozzle”

And

”Assume also that the air bleed orifice is closed. Then the head tending to cause a fuel flow through the nozzle may be such that the fuel flows in a series of large drops from the nozzle because of the surface tension and fuel-to-nozzle adhesion above, or perhaps does not flow even though it is above the bottom of the nozzle opening.”

So I took the reasoning by Mr Campbell for opening up the main well to .180” to improve fuel flow between lowest active emulsion bleed and main jet. Opening angle channel and booster leg to .166” may perform a similar function or required to support extra fuel.

Geoff, check out the below link. Under ‘How Edelbrock Created its Nearest Competitor’ it’s mentioned that Edelbrock were working with Carter as early as ‘73/‘74 with the AFB. There was reason for them to start favoring the AFB.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hrdp-13 ... edelbrock/

Statistics: Posted by Right hand drive — Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:09 am


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